Supporting Native Nations

GSA Does That!? Episode 13 shines a light on how GSA empowers Tribal Nations. Julie Ramey and Chris James join us to discuss enhancing Indigenous services and supporting Native businesses. Discover their vital role in federal markets and GSA's push for progress. Tune in for a compelling conversation on partnership and empowerment.

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Are you looking for more information about Native American Affairs? Check out the resource below!

• https://www.gsa.gov/resources/native-american-affairs

"GSA Does That!?" is the U.S. General Services Administration's first agency-wide podcast, offering listeners an inside look into how GSA and its partners benefit the American people. Hosted by Rob Trubia, the podcast features interviews with GSA leaders, experts, partners, and customers, covering topics such as federal real estate, acquisitions, and technology. The title reflects many's surprise at the scope of GSA's impact. At the same time, the artwork pays homage to President Harry S. Truman, who established GSA in 1949 to improve government efficiency and save taxpayer money. Whether you're a policy wonk or just curious about government operations, you can join the listener community.

For more information about the show visit, gsa.gov/podcast.

Transcript

Rob Trubia

Hey welcome to GSA Does That!? the podcast that uncovers the stories behind the federal agency delivering effective and efficient government. I'm your host Rob Trubia. And together we're learning what GSA is all about. In this episode, we're honing in on GSA's initiatives to support Tribal Nations. We'll learn about the strategies to better serve indigenous customers, the significance of native industries, and how GSA's collaboration with tribal governments is working to strengthen their communities.

We'll also discuss the critical and ongoing consultations with Indian Country. We're joined today by Julie Ramey, GSA's tribal liaison. Julie's working to build stronger ties between tribal governments and federal initiatives. Also joining us is Chris James, a champion for native businesses. Chris serves as the president and CEO of the National Center for American Indian Enterprise Development. Tune in, subscribe and for more content, visit GSA.gov/podcast.

Well, welcome, Julie. Julie, it's wonderful to have you with us on the podcast. Thank you for taking the time. Before we discuss the impactful work you're doing for Indian Country, and I know it's huge. Could you share a little bit about your background? What inspires your dedication as a GSA tribal liaison?

Julie Ramey

Sure. Well, thank you so much for having me here today, Rob. I'm really excited to get to talk about this topic today. And then this is definitely something I'm very passionate about. So a little bit about my background. I grew up in eastern Kentucky. I affiliate myself with the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians in North Carolina, and I grew up about two and a half, 3 hours away from that reservation.

Or the Qualla boundary actually is the proper term. What inspires me, I would have to say, is really my family and it really ties back down to that. My father, you know, he was he's the nat, he's where my native history comes from. But he's always been very passionate about our family's history. And it's something that he's always wanted to continue to strengthen our relationship with.

And I picked up that charge from him. Additionally, my mother was is a very civic minded person who is passionate, was a good old 70s, 60s hippie. And so passionate political conversations were always a part of my family's home. And then my stepfather brought in the business world to my life and really helped me understand the importance of business.

And so the combination of those three really led me to being this to having this grounded approach of government, business and Native American history. I would say that my passion for being in government really roots back to the fact that I started my life. You know, I had some challenges and I spent some time in courtrooms through divorces and different things like that.

And what I learned at a very young age is that the person sitting behind the desk has way more power than the person talking to the desk. And so I really latched on to that and decided about when I was ten years old, I was going to be in the government and work to try to really the goal was to make other children's lives better than my own and was really where those thoughts were at that time.

And over time, it's just evolved. And I've actually found myself living in Eastern Europe at one point in time in my college years, and I used to think I wanted to do international affairs. And in separating myself so much from this, from America and this community, I really realized how much love and passion I have for it. And so I came back from Bulgaria with a reinvigorated passion to serve Indian Country and recognized how much I do really love my country.

Rob Trubia

Well, thank you for sharing that. That is fascinating. Interesting. And it seems to me that your entire life has been your resume to get to. It's just led to this position that you're at now. It seems that you have the passion, your family history. All of it just leads you to be the perfect first GSA tribal liaison, in my opinion.

I got to ask you, though. You're the first tribal liaison, but hasn't GSA, why is there a GSA tribal liaison? There hasn't GSA always served Tribal Nations? Is they're just doubling down on the effort. What created this position? Why is this position now exist where it didn't in the past?

Julie Ramey

Well, I you know, this position existing really has to be contributed to this administration. I mean, the Biden administration, his emphasis and focus on empowering natives throughout the government and the areas where we should be a part of the table has really been impactful across the government. And I think that this administration put in more accountability under the executive order around tribal consultation and whenever he, the White House Council on Native Affairs approached GSA about this, they responded with will step up and deliver.

And so and I think that I found myself at the right place at the right time with the right amount of expertise to be able to be the person to deliver. But we have always served tribes. So I do want to clarify, to be clear on that. What's different now that we've shined a high a spotlight on this service is that we've now realized that they're not realized, but we're now putting more emphasis and intention behind elevating tribes as our customer and recognizing that they spent more in the space of our federal customers than our state, local and territorial customers due to treaties and sovereignty and the obligations the United States government has to them.

Rob Trubia

Is that when you going back to what you just said, is that what they mean by when, say, government to government, when we're talking about these interactions, government to government, not to state or local, but really we're talking about tribal governments and federal government and partnering and working together to create opportunity.

Julie Ramey

Yes. I mean, tribes are set more in an international space than a domestic law space. You know, we have tribes are able to, you know, bring the United States government to the United Nations in cases which they've done before and the treaties establish and the Commerce Clause and in the Constitution fortifies the fact that tribes are to be negotiated with as separate nations.

And so when we talk government to government, you know, we might be having a small tribal community. But the reality is, is they are elected leaders of a sovereign nation.

Rob Trubia

It sounds like your job is really about like you said, GSA has been serving Tribal Nations, but your job is really about intentionality, really intentionally serving and trying to understand what GSA can do to help Indian Country be successful economically and take down the barriers that sometimes exist. It's hard sometimes to navigate through the government.

Julie Ramey

Yes, very much so. And we are we're unique in the sense that we don't have a direct treaty tied obligation that we can point to that says this is what the mission we have to deliver on is for the country. GSA and by its nature is kind of a back seat type of agency we’re the backbone, we just exist.

We keep everything standing upright, but nobody's really paying attention to us in that sense, which is that's where we want to be, right? That's the goal of GSA is to keep us create a smooth running government that nobody even knows who's actually with. You know, nobody even needs to pay attention to the fact that it's how it's operating because it's going so well.

Right. That's where we want to be. What what's been the piece that's come together? And I think and that's is recognizing that because of our commitments to all these other federal agencies and they have to have missions that support their treaty obligations to tribes, we also play a key role in helping those agencies meet that mission. And there's the idea, understanding that outside of the internal government bureaucratic world, there's one government.

And so whatever that's the attitude I have is what is the role we play as one government and how do we support tribes in that mentality? The other piece of it is we have to do, we straddle the fence. We work with tribes. It's tribal governments and our customers and helping them not just with their economic development, but with their government administrative strength and capabilities.

We help protect them if they do acquisitions through us so that that whatever they're spending their money on is guaranteed and delivers. And if something doesn't happen, we can come with the force of the United States government to create accountability for whoever serving tribes. And we also do our best to provide the best price for them, creating cost savings so they can take these very precious dollars that they have.

And these in these small communities or sometimes large communities, but with big needs and stretch them as far as possible. There's also a huge administration burden. Administrative burden and shortage in Indian country. You have tribal governments that are smaller than some local county governments trying to carry the burdens of an entire sovereign nation. And so when you think about that and the influx of money coming in through some of the new legislation that's came out in these past couple of years, no one new is moving to a reservation and excited to do, you know, contracts management.

So we have to step up and become that administrative extension for Indian Country to help carry that burden and protect tribes.

Rob Trubia

Talking about the Inflation Reduction Act and the bipartisan infrastructure law, you touched on that there's been some real infusion of dollars. I think it's something around $25 billion that are set aside specifically for Tribal Nations, which I imagine creates a ton of economic opportunity. Of course. But at the same time, like you touched on earlier, that's a lot of administration to deal with and that's a lot of contracting to deal with.

What is GSA doing to help Tribal Nations and native industries take advantage of this incredible opportunity through this new legislation?

Julie Ramey

So what we're doing is we're trying we're building the infrastructure inside the agency to be better positioned for it. So some of those things include just taking our trainings that we were providing in the past that may have had a handful of slides that were pertinent to tribes, but the rest spoke to states and local governments, we've pulled that out and developed a training specifically for them that really addresses their own unique sovereignty issues and things like that.

So we're really just getting more trainings and resources out there to efficiently navigate us. But the reality is, is an Indian country is a personable place. It's not a it's not your bureaucratic emails and report. But when it comes to those really in boots on the ground doing the work, they need real hands on support. And so what we've done, as we have in the new re-align reorganization that happened under FAS, I believe it's the F-4 group that was this is under we now have a strategic advisor on tribal affairs under our customer service division of GSA.

Now what they do is they are the point person and they're the starting point. A tribe wants to procure something. That's where they go. They get a hands on person who's specifically dedicated to them because knows they meet unique nuances and authorities and pieces they have to support. We also now, you know, we still have tribes connected to the state, local and tribal and territory and territorial program.

We don't want to disconnect them from it because there are advantages. So we also now have a customer service manager who is a state, local, tribal territorial coordinator. That person is really focused on creating synergy across all the groups to make sure that we're not leaving anything behind, that one group or the other could have access to. And then the other piece is in emergency management.

Tribes are at the center of climate change, particularly in Alaska, and we want to be well positioned to support them when an emergency is happening, when trees are on fire, when floods are running through your community, you don't have time to be clicking through our website to figure out what you need to do and who you need to call.

And so you'll notice on our new website we have you are you in an emergency button and it directs you to where you need to go, but you do now have a person who specialized to look at this. And he's actually going to be going to the National Congress of American Indians this next week. And joining in on some of the emergency planning sessions and things to bring back to GSA to make sure we're well positioned and identify exactly where we can play roles, particularly in that long term recovery process after an emergency.

Rob Trubia

Just really sounds like you're trying to streamline so much. So I think you just barely came off your inaugural Native American Industry Day. Congratulations on putting that together. I think you heard it was a huge success. What are you hoping it accomplished and how do you see it moving things forward?

Julie Ramey

So I hope to accomplish a clear message that GSA is here to support tribal businesses, Native American industry. I think that we are we need to be facilitating the infrastructure they need to find success. And, you know, we one of the things that's on a downside, you know, I think it's the government's job to call out whatever inequities exist or whenever something needs to be facilitated.

And what we see across from the statistics, as we've done these equity studies this past year, is that while we have a robust Native American industry, we're not seeing a robust diversity in awards and the competitions and we need to fix that. It cannot be a large pool of vendors with only a small pool of winning. So really it's about facilitating a more diverse Native American market and ensuring that where there's opportunities, where there's needs, tribes are capitalizing on that rather than trying to break into an industry that's already saturated.

So some of the things we talked about yesterday during the Industry Day was, you know, the need for low body, low carbon embodied materials for our construction projects and these infrastructure projects. We talked about local needs for concrete, because concrete's one of those materials, it's a relatively low cost entry into the market. It does not transport well. So it's also an opportunity for rural areas to try to build up infrastructure.

And so that's where we're being again, the intentionality is the theme here. We’re being intentional. Where are opportunities? How are you winning? You know, GSA does majority of its awards through to native vendors, through our vehicles such as our GWACS or government wide acquisition contracts or our blanket purchase purchasing agreements or indefinite delivery contracts, stressing and talking to the industry about the fact that that is the path to success.

That is where you're going to find your most opportunity. You know, get yourself in that position you in to have an advantage because you've already been vetted, you've already been selected. Now you're not competing with tens of thousands of vendors. You're competing with a pool of vendors that are that are much more limited. So you can you can really have more of an opportunity to make yourselves stand out.

Rob Trubia

Julie I think we all really appreciate when government agencies are working together to make the most impact for the public. Do you have any examples of GSA really intentionally partnering with other agencies in the government that are benefiting native communities? And and just what's exciting, what's going on right now, this just really excites you about the momentum that GSA is building to really uplift Indian Country.

Julie Ramey

This is all Bipartisan Infrastructure Law funding that we're working with a little mix of Inflation Reduction Act and some of those, but primarily these are BIL projects. The BIL, one of the things that's unique about the bipartisan infrastructure law is that it has extra requirements for community engagement and has extra requirements to make sure that we're going and doing these infrastructure projects, that there's added value beyond just the individual project, wherever we can identify it.

And so we took that very much so to heart. We've been working closely with the Thriving Communities Initiative, which brings all the different agencies together and gives them a mechanism to support them in this broader concept. But through our one on one tribal consultations on these projects, which we've had three so far across our northern border in particular, we've had some amazing outcomes, outcomes we could have never expected had we not had those in-depth conversations.

For example, we have a land port of entry project that's actually wholly on tribal lands. We're sitting on an easement afforded by the tribe to the to the state of Minnesota and the United States government for our border crossing. So everything we do is through the tribe. Our permit approval is through the tribe, our footprint is through the tribe, our NEPA, about our environmental assessment is is approved and reviewed through the tribe.

So we are very intimately working hand in hand with them. In doing so, what we've we've been able to elevate is, one, facilitate a stronger relationship between the tribe and CBP. Across the Indian country we have a murdered and missing indigenous persons crisis that's happening. And that's not that's not a Grand Portage is not excluded from that. CBP was through consultations, made aware of the significance of this issue.

They were not fully aware of it prior. The officer's weren’t, which is understandable. That's not not their thing. They're there to enforce the border, but out of that, we now have they became very passionate because that fit in their space like like there's a safety issue here. How do we provide for that? So we already have just through that partnership, they've put up a board by the border crossing that's now elevating visibility of the women and relatives that are missing from those communities right there so we can create more awareness.

We have tribal elders in Alaska walking with our environmental assessment folks, identifying historic archeological sites, identifying areas that are of significant subsistence practices, different things like that.

It completely directed the way we were going to approach that at that site. And in Alaska, by having those elders there, sharing that knowledge changed our perspective on the importance of different areas. We were selecting.

Rob Trubia

Julie I'm just curious, as we close out, you know, how do you see GSA becoming a more significant player in this arena where we can really be moving things down the road?

Julie Ramey

Yeah, no, the only thing I would like to add is that as stressed that we really are positioning ourselves to be a more significant player in the success of Indian Country. And we hope that the efforts were taking right now facilitate a lot of economic growth, a lot of address and administrative burden need that has been expressed by tribal leaders throughout the government and that we can continue to find ways through our Public Building Service to elevate the visibility of tribes and recognize and honor the history that we share with them.

That is our history in this country.

Rob Trubia

Well, Julie, you know, really, honestly, everything that you're doing really makes me very proud to be a part of GSA. I hear your passion as you share it. And it's not just passion. It is results. Thank you for your time. Thank you for talking with us. Thank you for everything you're doing on behalf of GSA and for Tribal Nations.

And we're looking forward now to getting Chris James on the line. Chris is the president and CEO of the National Center for American Indian Enterprise Development. Welcome, Chris, and thank you for taking the time to be with us today. Would you mind sharing with our listeners a little bit about your background, your past roles and what you do now at the National Center for American Indian Enterprise Development?

Chris James

Yeah, well, thank you, Rob, and I really appreciate that, that kind introduction. It's really an honor to be with you guys today. We really appreciate GSA's support of the National Center and its engagement with Indian Country. So really excited that that GSA is part of that engagement. My background is in tribal and economic development. I've been working in that field for over right around 20 years.

Sometimes it feels like over 20 years. I was born and raised in Cherokee, North Carolina, Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians. So I have the background not only from birth, but also my parents had small restaurants on the reservation. There for the Eastern band. So I had been in economic development small business all my life. I was honored to work for the tribe with this in within the CFI industry, we had a community development financial institution which I worked for the tribe for a number of years and then had an opportunity to serve eight years in the Obama administration from 2009 all the way through the end of 2016 and in 2017 came to work at the National Center.

Rob Trubia

And you've got some experience for sure. And I sound like a real champion for Native American industries overall. And so neat that you really I mean, started in small business on the reservation with your parents and and just doing all the things it takes to make a small business successful.

Chris James

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it went from my parents, my grandparents, my grandmother even had a little craft shop on the reservation that sold Native American goods, moccasins, beaded word baskets. So even, you know, I'm that is my parents and my grandparents. So multiple families.

Rob Trubia

So you're you're leading you're the president and CEO of the National Center. And that represents a lot of different businesses from probably businesses like what your parents owned to businesses that are just multi-million, if not billion dollar business. Can you share with us a little bit about the diversity within the native industries? You know, I know it's quite vast.

Maybe elaborate a bit on the kinds of businesses that are part of the National Center Network.

Chris James

Yeah, that's a great question because, you know, Indian Country is diverse and those businesses are just as diverse. So like you said, we have the the one or two person company who's maybe an artisan or maybe they have a small construction company all the way to a big Alaska Native corporation that that may have a thousand employees and then everybody in between and and the the the beauty of those companies is that a lot of times, you know, they're those companies are rural based.

So they're huge job creations in our community. Oftentimes, folks have this misconception that, you know, all tribes have casinos. And that's that's really part although we do have tribes that have a lot of casinos is not a huge part of the diversity in the small business development. It's is a piece of a certain economy is but not the biggest piece.

So these companies, whether it's tribally owned or individually owned, are so, so, so important to the economies of our of our communities.

Rob Trubia

You know, what makes the National Center important? Why do you guys exist? What are you trying to do for these tribal industries?

Chris James

So we have a lot of programs at the National Center. We serve clients through our Apex accelerator, which services 26 states. That's working with businesses as they try to get government contracting. We have funding through the Small Business Administration that services all of the United States, and that's support small business in various stages of of their development. We have an export center that helps support individual businesses and to getting out the exporting outside of our country.

And that that center is only one of four supported by a minority development agency. 

And then lastly, we put on the reservation economic reservation, economic Summit is the largest economic development conference in the world. We attract about 4100 to 4500 attendees. And it's really a laser focus on economic development and building our economies.

Rob Trubia

You know, working with the government as a business person, no matter what type of business or where it's coming from is it can be tricky. It can be difficult. There could be a lot of barriers. What are some of the unique barriers you think that, you know, native owned businesses come across where GSA can really be helpful with them?

And we are really trying to double down on removing barriers, red tape and making things easier for all businesses and particularly tribal industries.

Chris James

Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of times understanding that Indian Country businesses are just as competitive as any small business they may be, as I said, rural based. So making sure that those those GSA opportunities get well distributed through the United States and all the way into the hands of people so that they have access to them is a is an important thing.

But I think all of our businesses are capable to to go after GSA contracts and are capable to to do business with the federal government if they want to. So I think that's, you know, understanding the diversity of all of our businesses and and then having partners like the National Center that helps support those businesses, we can provide specialized training.

So if there's something coming down the line around I.T. or or something, cybersecurity, that's something that we can we can work with those businesses to make sure that they have the certifications they need to be more competitive. So I think it's a it's a partnership. And it's also making sure that that our native businesses have those opportunities.

Rob Trubia

It’s my understanding the American Rescue Plan allocated 25 billion with a B dollars for tribal governments. You know, to take advantage of that kind of opportunity. That kind of funding creates for for tiny businesses and for the biggest ones what do native owned businesses really need from GSA to help take advantage of that. What is it that we can do to help businesses really thrive?

Chris James

And the cool thing about that legislation, it's not just the American rescue plan. It's also other huge pieces of legislation as well. Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, the CHIPS Act and the Science Act all passed by the Biden administration this year. And some of those investments really seek to bring tribal communities into into the fold of those opportunities.

Some of the opportunities I see in Indian Country is definitely the clean energy economy. You know, we have the infrastructure and resources to compete for those 21st century jobs. And we know we know that clean, clean energy is important and forefront of some of these initiatives. But some of the challenges is making sure just our tribes, just as I mentioned in the other other question that our tribes know about the resources available to them, knowing about the opportunities, making sure that they have tools so that they can build up their capacity.

And that's really important to us. The National Center is always there to support those businesses.

Rob Trubia

When there's a large contract signed with a native industry or particularly with a tribal government, how does that contract and those dollars, how does that generate prosperity not just with the business that we are typically seeing? Because, you know, businesses outside of Tribal Nations, it's just, oh, this business just got richer. Where my understanding is with when you're working with tribal governments, it's not just about that business that gets, you know, more prosperous, but it's the entire community.

How does it help us understand how that works?

Chris James

Yeah, well, if there's a contract, it goes to a entity owned company or like a tribally owned venture, then the profits go into back into the tribe. And so let's just say an example. If you have $1,000,000 contract, roughly, that net profit on that contract is probably 4 to 8%. So that money, that 4 to 8% goes directly back into the tribe to do maybe economic development, maybe to build another another piece of the business, maybe to expand their opportunities.

So. So that's that's one big core of a tribally owned business that that other small businesses just don't don't do that. And I think that that that money often goes into education. Maybe it goes into infrastructure, maybe it goes into a workforce development program. That contract actually creates jobs for tribal members or maybe even jobs for other communities that surround the native community.

So. So there's lots of trickle down effects from those contracts that are issued from the federal government.

Rob Trubia

Chris, what does it mean to you when you hear that GSA is working overtime to really support Tribal Nations and in the industries and work with them in a way that it's government to government? And you see that and you see a new website, you see a special day that's, you know, a Native American industry day that we just put on.

When you hear about this and your federal government is doing that to support these Tribal Nations, what does that mean to you and the businesses that you work with every day?

Chris James

To me, I love seeing leaders emerge and seeing GSA be a leader among the federal government is really, really welcoming. Also, I see GSA understanding sort of the the differences between the various types of of companies so that we have it could be a tribally owned company or an individually owned company and really understanding what that means. I also see reaching into the community is very valuable because it does provide opportunities.

GSA is not just giving people contracts. The companies still are having to prove themselves and show that they have the capacity to do to do these contracts. It's just giving GSA is giving them the opportunity, just as any small business giving the opportunity to those businesses that we know that are great businesses and that may not always have the opportunity.

Rob Trubia

What do you wish your members knew more about when it came to working with the government and developing federal contracts? You know, those members that rely on the National Center for the advice that you provide, the support that you provide. What is the big takeaway you wish they would really understand or the way GSA can be most helpful to them can make a success really right there for even that smallest business?

Chris James

I think providing that opportunity, whether it's an opportunity to go after $150,000 contract or it's an opportunity to do to go after a 4 million sole source award. I think providing our businesses that opportunity to to do that. I also believe to too, that government, including GSA, is should support organizations like myself that provide technical assistance, provide training, provide those tools for those businesses so that we can help those businesses be ready.

When those contracts come down the pipeline, they can they can compete. We can help them not only identify opportunities where we can help them, we can help them get ready for that opportunity and actually scale up to that opportunity. So having support from the federal government to support programs like myself and a lot of my my brother and sister, technical assistance providers throughout the United States is critical to help keep those businesses engaged with the federal government and also provide them all the tools they need for for their their toolbox.

Rob Trubia

Chris, as we close out here, I want to know, when you look five, ten, even 20 years into the future, what is your hope for these native owned industries and really, you know, Indian country as a whole, sign us off with that, like what is your hope? What are you working for every day for the future of Indian country?

Chris James

Boy, that's that's a that's a great question. So I think one, our tribes continue to diversify themselves. They are constantly looking at opportunities a little bit about outside of the box thinking. So I think that's for for me, that's critical that that the tribes are looking at various industry is yes, they some of them are looking at gaming.

Yes. Some of them are looking at government contract. Now, some of them are looking at energy development. There's so many opportunities or investments or agriculture. So continuing to build upon those industries I think is critical. Secondly, I'd love to see our tribes continue to build their entrepreneurs in their, in their communities. And I think this is providing opportunities for entrepreneurship.

How do we get more individuals into small businesses? How can we build more small businesses in rural and reservation communities to to to provide the goods and services that people in the community want? Because all that trickles down to job creation, that trickles down to our circulated wealth in the community, and it also provides opportunity for our youth.

So those are that's what I work for every day, and that's what I want to see in the next five, ten, 20 years.

Rob Trubia

It sounds like you're clearly on a mission. We can't thank you enough for your time. This has been a really fun conversation and very interesting and and I think encouraging. I really am very encouraged by all the things that you've shared and and I hope you feel like and the industries that you're the companies that you're representing feel that GSA and their federal government is really behind them and really wants them to be successful.

Well, today we've heard about the strength and innovation of native businesses and their leaders and how they play a crucial role in the federal marketplace and just how GSA is working overtime to remove the barriers of increase in economic development and opportunities. A heartfelt thanks to Julie Ramey  for her dedicated support to tribal governments and Chris James, whose leadership is key to the growth of Native American businesses.

Don't miss out on our upcoming episode, we will uncover the ways GSA championed small businesses. Subscribe to stay updated and for more information, visit gsa.gov/podcast. To suggest future topics or guests, email us at gsadoesthtat@gsa.gov. I'm Rob Trubia alongside Max Stempora. This has been a production of the General Services Administration Office of Strategic Communication.

Thank you for listening.