A Triple Win

In the premiere of GSA Does That!? Season 2, it’s all about GSA's sustainability efforts with Administrator Robin Carnahan and special guest, Blue Green Alliance Executive Director, Jason Walsh. They discuss creating high-quality jobs, reducing energy costs, and fostering healthier communities through sustainable government operations and investments, including low embodied carbon materials and carbon-free electricity for GSA's buildings.

Want to know more?

Are you looking for more information about sustainable building practices? Check out the resources below!

• Climate Action & Sustainability
• Green Proving Ground
• Inflation Reduction Act
• Bipartisan Infrastructure Law

"GSA Does That!?" is the U.S. General Services Administration's first agency-wide podcast, offering listeners an inside look into how GSA and its partners benefit the American people. Hosted by Rob Trubia, the podcast features interviews with GSA leaders, experts, partners, and customers, covering topics such as federal real estate, acquisitions, and technology. The title reflects many's surprise at the scope of GSA's impact. At the same time, the artwork pays homage to President Harry S. Truman, who established GSA in 1949 to improve government efficiency and save taxpayer money. Whether you're a policy wonk or just curious about government operations, you can join the listener community.

For more information about the show visit, gsa.gov/podcast.

Transcript

Rob Trubia
Welcome to the second season of GSA Does That. The podcast that uncovers the stories behind the federal agency delivering effective and efficient government. I'm your host, Rob Trubia. And in this episode, we're zeroing in on a theme I think you should be very excited about. The triple win of sustainability. Think jobs that pay well, lower energy costs and communities that are healthier for everyone.

It's all happening. And we've got GSA administrator Robin Carnahan and Jason Walsh from the Bluegreen Alliance here to talk about it. Robin brings to the conversation a deep understanding from her role at GSA. At the same time, Jason shares a fresh view on how labor and environmental groups are working together.

They'll talk about how combining federal efforts with labor practices is creating real progress in sustainability. We'll be diving into GSA's push for low embodied carbon building materials and carbon free electricity to power its 8000 buildings. And we'll ask Robin and Jason to break down why choosing materials with low carbon footprints is key in reducing pollution and how GSA's investing billions to make that happen.

And here's the best part. This push for sustainability isn't just good for the planet. It's sparking innovation and lining up with the administration's goals for a greener future. And Jason's here to bust the myth that creating solid jobs and protecting the environment can't go hand in hand. So get ready to hear how GSA and the private sector are joining forces to hit that sweet spot, a future that's greener, richer and healthier for all.

This is GSA Does That Season!? two. And remember, this podcast is available on all major platforms. So please be sure to subscribe for more information about this episode and others, visit us online at GSA.gov/podcast. Robin and Jason, thank you for joining us on the podcast today. It is a real privilege to have you with us.

Robin, you were on episode one, season one, and it was honestly one of our most listened to episodes. So having you back to kick off Season two is pretty great, especially since you brought Jason from BGA with you. So thank you both again for being here.

Robin Carnahan
Great to be here and I'm excited to launch season two.

Jason Walsh
It's a pleasure to be here.

Rob Trubia
Thank you both. Well, Robin, would you mind starting us off by sharing why you talk about sustainability as a triple win, how so?

Robin Carnahan
Oh, it's great. I'm glad you heard that I talk about it that way because I do it all the time. You know, the president always says when he thinks about these and investing in America and these sustainability investments, he thinks jobs. Well, I think that, too. But I think it is beyond jobs. It is what I always talk about is a triple win.

So it's those good paying American jobs. It's about reducing energy costs and I hope we can get into that a little bit more because when we use less energy, we pay less as taxpayers for that. And then the third is, of course, healthier communities for for us and for the next generation. So it just makes a lot of sense.

The thing that, you know, for GSA, because we have so much real estate, you know, if you're thinking about do you do you put in new windows, you put in solar on the house, on your own house, you have to always think about the payback. Right. How long am I going to stay in the house? Does this make economic sense to get this done?

Well, GSA, we own these buildings for a really long time. We hold on to em, for, you know, decades, some we have 150 year old buildings. So when we make these improvements, the cost savings is just immediate because we're not turning we're not flipping buildings. We are holding on to them. So it's really smart for us. We're the biggest holder of real estate in the country.

We have one of the biggest fleets of vehicles in the country. We buy hundreds of billions of dollars worth of things every year. So if we as the government can have targets to do better around sustainability, we can really help impact and move markets. And the exciting thing is we know that technology is caught up to be able to allow us to do this, that we can both get good results and have it be efficient use of money.

And we've also seen that we really can move markets because we've done it before with other with other examples. So I'm excited to talk more about this.

Rob Trubia
Well, I want to focus in on the first part of your triple win. What more can you tell us specifically about job creation?

Robin Carnahan
Well, yeah, look, that's it's it's a big part of all of this. It really is where things start. Well, we talk about investing in America and investing in sustainability. It's about American jobs and American manufacturing. GSA through the bipartisan infrastructure law and the Inflation Reduction Act, those two things it passed over the last couple of years and the president pushed we're getting somewhere over $6 billion in funds for those two kinds of projects, and that falls into a few buckets.

One is we're going to be supporting a lot with the Department of Homeland Security on border crossings. So at our northern and southern borders, to both make those more efficient, more secure and to help commerce, trade, prevent drug trafficking, all of the things. And we expect that to, you know, create about 6000 jobs just through those investments and then about another three and a half billion for this inflation reduction Act.

And that is in a few different buckets, but it is really we're focused a lot on a couple things. One is sustainable building materials. And what I mean by that is like the construction materials that the federal government buys a lot of that. There are four things we buy the most of, and that is get this concrete, asphalt, glass and steel.

And so 98% of the money we spend to build things are on those four products, which I find kind of astounding. So the idea is if we can reduce the carbon and the emissions and the pollution it takes to produce those four things, then that has a big impact. And so where we have a couple of billion dollars in projects all over the country where we are focused on low embodied carbon building materials and those four materials, and then we're doing a lot of retrofitting.

I told you about all these old buildings. If we can put in high efficiency heat pumps, we can put in high efficiency windows that we can put in solar panels. That changes the energy use on those buildings, that reduces costs. That makes the grid more resilient, that reduces emissions, and that creates jobs. So that's the kind of work we're doing all over the country.

Rob Trubia
Yeah, well, that's pretty interesting because you're talking about reducing pollution carbon into the atmosphere before the buildings ever built, before the road is ever built. You're talking about like you said, glass, concrete, asphalt, steel, producing them in ways that are better for the environment before you even get to the building.

Robin Carnahan
The thing that's really cool to me is like, I would never have thought a few years ago that I would be excited talking about concrete and asphalt. But lo and behold, here we are. And the reason is that there's a ton of emissions in the production of that. But by just asking the industry, can you do it with lower emissions?

Guess what? It turns out they can. I have visited asphalt plants, I've visited concrete plants and they can cut the carbon in their production by 50, 60% without any significant increase in cost. You know, if you think about that, it's just kind of wild. And when I asked them, like, well, why haven't you done this before, Here's what they said.

They said, no one has ever asked us.

Rob Trubia
Well, you're asking now.

Robin Carnahan
We're asking now. And so when the government asked because we're big buyers of this stuff, sure. Move the market. So pretty exciting.

Rob Trubia
Jason, let's get you in on this. You're the executive director of the Blue Green Alliance, an organization dedicated to solving environmental challenges while still like we talk about maintaining quality jobs. Can you tell us a little bit more about BGA's role when it comes to fostering good paying union jobs?

Jason Walsh
Yes, thanks for the question, Rob. So the Bluegreen Alliance is a public policy organization. We work on a bunch of issue areas, but the common denominator of all of our policy work is seeking to align environmental goals with the goal of creating and sustaining high quality union jobs. And we bring that orientation to work in multiple industry sectors across the clean energy economy, always trying to elevate the importance of jobs that offer families supporting wages and benefits and also contribute to protecting the planet.

So for our for example, in our work on the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and the Inflation Reduction Act, we advocated for attaching strong labor standards to the federal investments in sustainable infrastructure and clean energy and manufacturing, all based on our approach to industrial policy, which is that we we need to invest in economic sectors that are of strategic importance to the United States and its people, not to mention the fate of the planet.

But we also need to attach standards to taxpayer dollars that maximize the public benefits of those investments for workers and for the environment. And I will say I think we're very aligned with the Biden administration on this industrial policy approach. And as Robin mentioned, when the president talks about climate, he likes to talk about jobs and union jobs.

So it's been a really good partnership.

Rob Trubia
It sounds like you're saying you've got one hand out this way, one hand out that way, or like, listen, we can do good things for the environment, but we can still have great jobs. We can have really great jobs, jobs that maintain families that take care of people and can do them together in the same time. It sounds like you're you're you're dancing back and forth on that every day.

Jason Walsh
Yeah. When we use both hands. Exactly.

Rob Trubia
Yeah. No, I love that.

Robin Carnahan
Can I just say, like, one of the coolest things I've done? And Jason, I'm sure you've done this as well, is visited some of the union job training centers around the country. And it's just remarkable to me. And I was out in Cleveland and visited IBEW Local 38 apprenticeship program. But I've just last week in Kansas City, I visited, I visited, I think, sheet metal workers.

And I've been out to the Pipefitters in different places so that the crafts and the trades are are doing what we need to have the workforce of the future. And it's remarkable because people are being trained on how to install EV charging infrastructure or solar panels or doing things with smart grids. If you're getting trained by the IBEW today.

And those are the exact kinds of skills that people are going to be needing all around the country. And so there are great opportunities. I could talk all day about that. But, you know, folks are able to get an education, the equivalent of a bachelor's degree in four years with while being paid right. Instead of going into debt, you're being paid and you're coming out of that with a guaranteed job, a good job on the other end.

So, Jason, you must have stories to tell about these apprenticeship programs.

Jason Walsh
We could certainly talk about that for a while. And I think what you're pointing to here is and this is the way we think about it. I mean, look, this is in some ways is a clean energy transition. It is a generational opportunity for blue collar workers in this country. Right. Who who have been on the hurting end of economic trends and some bad policies over several decades.

And yet now are in a leadership role for making and building this clean energy economy. Right. And you point you point to union run training with the building trades. I mean, I think it's it's it is a little known fact that the building trades and their employer partners run no fewer than about 1600 training centers across the country right in every corner of the country.

They've got like 90,000 instructors. I mean, the scale is is dramatic. If if, if if they were a four year degree granting institution a college, they would be the biggest in the country. Right. And for for a long time, they have been a gold standard for training in the construction sector. And it wasn't until this administration and the Inflation Reduction Act that they were really brought into installing all of these clean energy technologies.

They were pretty much on the sidelines. And now with with some smart labor standards attached to those investments, including to clean energy tax credits for the first time, they are in the game, which is now not only essential from the standpoint of supporting a living wage jobs, but also from the standpoint of quality is, as you mentioned, Robin, this this is like really high quality training.

Right. And the difference between a piece of equipment or technology that that is properly installed versus improperly installed is not only is an economic impact, but it's an emissions and pollution impact as well.

Robin Carnahan
Yeah, it's interesting because this this issue comes up all the time about around project labor agreements and other things about, you know, how where what kind of what kind of work workers you hire. That I had a conversation with a big construction company CEO not long ago and said, hey, you know, you use project labor agreements and union labor on your on your jobs.

And he said all the time. And I said, well, that's that's interesting. Why do you do that? And he said, Well, that's easy. Like, I want the best trained workers on my jobs and it saves me money to get it done right the first time. And I just think, you know, as the federal government, we should be thinking about that the same way.

We want the best workers on our jobs, the best skilled workers, and we want it right the first time. And that that saves money.

Rob Trubia
When someone's interested in being trained in these new, technologically driven, you know, clean energy. Like, you know, we talk about solar or wind, I guess I'll ask Jason where do they go to get trained? I often look up at these giant, I'm in Colorado and I go to Wyoming a lot and I see these massive wind farms like who's climbing all the way up there and what are they?

How do they know what to do when they get up there? Where do you go to learn this stuff?

Jason Walsh
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, look, there are a lot of programs out there. Both Robin and I are pointing, though, to our registered apprenticeship system, which is administered by the Department of Labor. They actually they maintain those registrations, which is important. Right, Because that's that's how you ensure the quality, that that's how a consumer knows when when a program is registered by DOL or by by a state labor agency, that it's going to be high quality and that it's going to result in industry recognized credentials and those those span the gamut across a number of crafts.

I'll say, you know both union and nonunion at union training centers at community and technical colleges. I think an important point to make here, though, is that one of the benefits of of of union registered apprenticeship programs is that they train workers for the whole craft. Right. You're training an electrician who who can do electrical work on a on a solar array or a wind turbine or a commercial building.

Right. They don't have a narrow set of skills. They have, frankly, less bargaining power and mobility in the labor market. And I think that's a critical point to make.

Rob Trubia
You know, with those skills today. Talk about job security. Wow. With everything with all these investments, it's impressive. You know, speaking of investments, Robin, can you talk a little bit about the federal Buy Clean Initiative? I mean, it's what's GSA's role? And and my understanding, it's pretty different from the way GSA is traditionally made investments. What is By Clean and how's GSA involved?

Robin Carnahan
Yeah, it's a great question. So you're right, Traditionally, when funds get appropriated for a project, it is to go build a courthouse, you know, in Cedar Rapids or wherever it is. Right. It's very specific to the project. And the funding for these buy clean initiatives has been a little bit different because it's about looking across this giant portfolio of ours and thinking about where we can plug in some of these funds for clean building materials or retrofits and improvements for efficiency and make a difference and cut costs and and so it's about the supply chain and it's about cost cutting.

The really fun part of this, I alluded to it before is industry has now got so many great things that they're working on in this. The sort of clean technology industry is is making huge strides. But so we often use our buildings as test beds for some of these new technologies. I was out in Denver a few months ago and there was a local kind of Boulder company that does quad pane windows.

So instead of like two panes of glass, there are four and we put those in some of these federal buildings and the payback on that was two and a half years.

Rob Trubia
That's remarkable.

Robin Carnahan
So, like, we're going to figure out how to scale this in other parts of the country, because we know that if you can tighten the building envelope, just like at your house, if you make the seals and the windows and the doors and all of that better, the envelope of the house, it makes it all more efficient and cut your energy bills.

So that's that's some of the things we're talking about. But we're really focused on doing that with American manufacturing and American jobs.

Rob Trubia
Robin, that business in Colorado. Is that a smaller business, considered a small business?

Robin Carnahan
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I wouldn't. It was fantastic. And it a small business has been growing a lot lately.

Rob Trubia
Yeah. So these these big dollars being invested aren't just going to the the huge companies, the small businesses are getting involved in the clean energy as well and doing things better.

Robin Carnahan
Absolutely. It's across the board. We've got we've got another really cool program because we're looking at sort of innovative technologies and companies called the Green Proving Ground. And it's been around for a long time, but we're really investing more in it now because of this new funding and what it is it brings in, as I said, sort of new companies are they have proven they have a proven technology, but maybe it has not been scaled much yet.

And so we can test it in our federal buildings. We're now have about 20 companies a year that we we bring in to that. You know, it ranges the gamut from things like these windows to new kinds of concrete to new charging infrastructure. One of them recently I visited was really interesting. And, you know, basically it has a it's for fleet vehicles.

So if you have these vehicles that are coming back and need to be charged, you know, the driver can just plug it in at the time that they're there. But because the the that there is a smart moment at which to to actual hold power because power prices vary in a 24 hour period. I don't know if you knew that or not but in some places it can vary in California can vary 400% in a day, right.

Depending on what time of day you're you're pulling the charge. And so these technologies allow you to pull the charge at the cheapest moment, which just saves tens of thousands of dollars every month. So there's a lot of really cool stuff going on.

Rob Trubia
Yeah, that's pretty brilliant. I know people that, you know, they set their car to charge in the middle of the night because, you know, it's less expensive because there's less demand on the grid, which makes a lot of sense.

Robin Carnahan
So and by the way, it's better for the grid, too. Right. So one of the things you want is to reduce peak load and make sure there are no blackouts and all of that kind of stuff and just be efficient. Thinking about the moments that you're pulling your charge really matters.

Rob Trubia
Yeah, as long as you get a full battery when you wake up in the morning, head to work, you don't really care what it charges.

Robin Carnahan
Exactly.

Rob Trubia
Well, Jason, I getting ready for this podcast. You know, I read some things about Bluegreen Alliance, of course, and about you, and you've got a strong belief that the country doesn't have to choose between these good paying jobs and a clean environment. And we talked about that a little bit earlier about the hand-holding, but maybe you can expound on that a little bit.

How do you see that? Can you tell us more about it?

Jason Walsh
Yeah, happy to. And let me actually start with a little history. If you'll indulge me. So I in in in the last half of of the 20th century, I think it's fair to say the environmental and labor movements had an on and off again relationship. Right. But but one that included some notable collaborations that often don't get a lot of attention.

And so, for example, the first Earth Day wouldn't have gotten off the ground without support from the United Auto Workers. And the United Steelworkers were were pivotal to getting the Clean Air Act passed in 1970. And in the fight against acid rain back in the eighties and nineties. But it was it was really in the nineties when the labor and environmental movement started coming together in the streets as mass movements fighting for a common cause in opposition to a global trade system that increasingly reinforced in the name of free trade a race to the bottom among countries seeking to attract manufacturing with weak to nonexistent protections for both workers and the environment.

And that culminated again in 1999 with huge demonstrations in the city of Seattle to protest against that kind of trade regime as as manifested by the WTO. This became known as the Battle of Seattle. Another catchphrase that came out of those protests was Teamsters and turtles, right? Union members and environmental activists coming together. Both the president of of the Steelworkers union, Leo Gerard at the time and the executive director of the Sierra Club, Carl Pope, where were were at that protest and they drew inspiration from it and and it and it led them to to call the question, well, heck, if if if these unlikely bedfellows can collaborate on trade policy, what what what other

policies can we collaborate on? And that became a conversation that led to the formation of the Bluegreen Alliance in 2006 by the steelworkers and the Sierra Club. And it was really around a foundational principle, a belief that we don't have to choose between good jobs and a clean environment. We can and have to have both. And look, that belief is a reality, right?

I mean, time and again, efforts to reduce pollution and clean up our air and water have also been successes for workers and the economy. Everything from fuel economy standards that have driven the growth and resurgence of the auto industry in the U.S. to to standards for buildings around energy efficiency. Robin talked about this to to policies like basically right.

That support manufacturing things in a cleaner way here in the United States. It is our job to bridge the labor and environmental movements to to bring solutions to the table that benefit both.

Rob Trubia
Robin, GSA has a lot of work to do. They've got billions of dollars that need to be spent to rebuild a lot of infrastructure. How how's GSA driving what Jason is talking about right now, what's GSA’s part in all of this?

Robin Carnahan
Well, I've alluded to a lot of it, I think already. And that is the the building materials we're trying to be a lot more intentional about buying those in ways that are more environmentally sustainable. And we've had a bunch of examples of having already done that right. So I was telling you about the land ports of entry on the on the southern and northern borders down in Arizona.

There is there is one in particular there that we were expanding the lanes there and making it so Homeland Security can like put in more surveillance equipment and other kinds of things they need to do to make sure drugs aren't coming in the country and also make sure products can flow more easily. They use low body carbon asphalt for that.

And it cut the emissions and the asphalt and of that whole project by 50%, straight up. And the cost was comparable to what we would have paid otherwise. So that just is a smart investment. In Richmond, we had an example of putting new windows in a courthouse, was American made glass, you know, cut the emissions. Comparable price didn't change that time.

In Denver, you know, same kind of thing where we were able to get more sort of asphalt there, that there's a concrete plan over in Kansas City that I visited called Geiger. And, you know, these guys are actually embedding carbon in the concrete, which is amazing, and cutting the emissions and the of that concrete by 50-60% for this for the same cost to the buyer.

So, you know, I just we're going to keep doing that on on building materials, but we're also partnering with industry really closely to do their called deep energy retrofits. And they're they're these this contract vehicle where basically we use some of our money and some of private sector's money and knowledge to reduce energy consumption in these buildings, and then it's paid back over time.

And so we've got about, you know, nearly $2 billion worth of those investments that we're going to be making. So very exciting.

Rob Trubia
Robin, are you alluded to or you've said LEC using LEC materials finding that it's not more expensive, not much more expensive. What are you learning? I'm curious.

Robin Carnahan
Well, so it varies in different parts of the country. And so one of the things that we've done over the last eight or nine months is some pilot projects to really kind of see what materials are available where and what the cost of that, what the cost differential might be. And so we're learning a lot from that. We've announced 150 projects in 38 states, including Puerto Rico and D.C., where we're going to be putting in either low embodied carbon, asphalt, concrete or steel into our project.

So what we're learning is that when you signal to the market that this is what we're interested in buying, the market figured out how to provide it. And it turns out that in many cases the cost is not much different. And that's like the big takeaway here is that you can do both of these things, and that's different than it was, you know, ten, 20, 30 years ago.

Today, innovation is allowed us to do do things that create this triple win. And we just need to be smart and take advantage of it.

Rob Trubia
Yeah, it sounds like capitalism sounds like great stuff. Yeah, but Jason, I'm wondering when we get down to the worker in the plant, you know, Robin mentioned earlier that, you know, they didn't do it because we didn't ask. But when we talk about it specifically with some of these things, are the processes changing much for the worker in the plant and what's it doing for their job security and maybe their job satisfaction when they know what they're producing is better for the environment or what they're producing is got a huge contract behind it because we're doing huge things to rebuild America.

Jason Walsh
I mean, look, we we we always see a lot of pride from union workers. We engage with, from our labor partners when they know they're making the materials that we need to rebuild our energy system and infrastructure and the products we use in day to day life in more environmentally friendly ways. A great example is a plant that that Robin, I know you visited in Toledo, Ohio, that is owned it's a steel plant owned by Cleveland-cliffs.

They make something called hot briquetted iron, which is which is the central point of making some of the cleanest steel anywhere in the country. And when we were there speaking to workers, this is not a direct quote, but but but more or less what this member said, he basically said, look, this this is the future to be and it's the future of steel.

I'm proud to work for a company that's focused on the greenhouse gas emissions that go out. And I think that's an illustration of of how workers at these facilities that are doing things that are cleaner and better have a lot of pride in that and rightfully so. Workers want to have good jobs that they can support their family with, of course, but they also want clean air to breathe and they want safe water to drink, and they want to leave a better planet for their kids and their grandkids.

The bottom line is that manufacturing workers, particularly in energy intensive sectors, have to be able to see themselves in the clean energy economy. And honestly, that hasn't always been the case. When when the only representation of a clean energy economy you see are big solar arrays and wind turbines as attractive and important as those are. A steelworker member in a factory rightfully asks, Where is my future in this?

Right. And that's a fair question, particularly when the components of those technologies are made in other countries. But they are part of the clean energy economy. They have to be all of the materials they make are foundational to the clean energy economy and the economy at large in this transition we're in the midst of we're essentially shifting from burning the sources of our fuel to making and building the sources of our fuel.

That means more materials like concrete and glass and aluminum and and when workers recognize that they're doing that work, they also support the the policies that actually enable that. Like Buy Clean, like the inflation reduction Act. And I think that's important as well.

Robin Carnahan
Yeah. I want to follow up on that, Jason, because it's something that I try to say a lot when people wonder why we're doing any of this. You know, a lot of times when you're in the middle of living in the middle of a transition you don't quite see it because you're just sort of living in it every day.

But for thousands of years we have used fuel that we burn, as you said, and we are now in a new place where we're transitioning to harvesting energy that provides power for us. And it's a very different thing, but it's not like it's going to go backwards. We're not sure if we're going to stop doing this smart thing of harvesting energy.

And so the notion that we have to have workers and unions and folks who have helped society through lots of other very big transitions in the middle of this is just great because I think we're going to look back on it and see this collaboration as something that is what is making America competitive internationally and is just, you know, unleashing the strength and innovation that we've always had in this country.

So that I'm glad you brought that up.

Jason Walsh
Yeah. And I appreciate what you added. And I think you make an important point. It's it's it's it's it is also that this is I mean, this is the direction in which the global economy is going. I in and so when the these manufacturers make these materials in cleaner ways, they are they are responding to an enormous historic shift in the global economy.

And when U.S. facilities and U.S. workers invest to to to actually be able to do this and meet that market demand, they're putting themselves in a much better position economically and for workers in a much better position from the standpoint of job security.

Rob Trubia
Robin, you mentioned, you know, obviously the federal government, GSA itself can really move markets. I mean, it can really use its power and in a great way to get things in a better place for the country. We're talking about carbon free electricity now. What kind of, are we the largest purchaser of electricity in the country is the federal government.

Robin Carnahan
We are actually along with the Department of Defense. So you can imagine we've got this giant portfolio of buildings. We also have to buy power for them. So if you think about it, GSA and DOD are the biggest buyers of power in the country. And that's pretty exciting because that, again lets us have conversations with our private sector partners that are not from government being a regulator, but government being a buyer.

I am the customer. We are the customer of these companies. And so when we set new goals about wanting to use carbon free pollution, free electricity in our in our facilities, that sends a really strong signal. And let's the utility companies know that we're a long term buyer of a lot of power and this is what we want.

So it's easier for them to invest in more carbon free electricity and do what it takes to get that on the grid. So it's pretty complicated, as you know, because the utility markets are very sort of different in different parts of the country. But we work with both the deregulated markets that's called where we're just really closely integrating with with the power producers and the distribution companies.

And then there are other markets that are regulated markets. And in those we're spending a lot of time with the the energy and power producers and distributors and as well as the utility commissions and those states to make sure that we can get what we call green tariffs, approved that we can use both for the government, but private buyers can, as well.

There are lots of opportunities for partnerships here. And again, it's government job to lead by example. Right. And this is just a great opportunity for us to say, yes, we're buyers and here's the kind of stuff we want to buy. And by doing that, we can help the market transition to where we know it's going. And we just want to speed it up a little bit.

Rob Trubia
They said, We've got 8000 buildings and you're in the market for carbon free electricity. Did I read correctly that the goal there is you want to be buying all carbon free electricity by 2030 for those 8000 buildings?

Robin Carnahan
Correct? Yeah, It's a very big, ambitious goal.

Rob Trubia
Yeah. That’s six years from now.

Robin Carnahan
It's not an impossible goal. Well, there's there's a lot of carbon free electricity on the grid. We just need to let folks know that again, we want to buy it. Be clear about the sort of the terms under which we can do that, and then it lets them invest in more of this kind of power.

Rob Trubia
Jason I'm wondering how the Bluegreen Alliance is seeing all of these efforts by GSA. What are you hearing from those that you represent on both sides?

Jason Walsh
Yeah, well, look, I I'm not blowing smoke when I say I think I think the GSA has been doing a really excellent job. You are leading the way really, for the rest of the federal government on what it means to procure low embodied construction materials in. I think you're building it as you go, whether we call it a plane or something else, and, you know, making adjustments where necessary and then really crucially, sharing those insights and learnings with your colleagues across the federal government.

That's not easy. Going first usually isn't easy, but someone's got to do it. And I think GSA is the right federal agency to be the first mover. And this is huge. As Robins talked about, the federal government can provide a single market signal to manufacturers, right, that we want cleaner products and we're not going to buy the dirtiest stuff anymore.

And I think these facilities are stepping up to the plate. You know, there's always room for improvement. This kind of market transformation takes time where we're kind of turning an aircraft carrier here. But using government purchasing through By Clean is an incredibly important procurement tool. And I think it's it's worth flagging. You know, the Inflation Reduction Act funding right, which includes funding for facilities to clean themselves up.

And that's an essential part of this as well.

Rob Trubia
You know, I'm starting to see the connection that's making a lot of sense to me. Robin, I'm curious, just as we close out, what are you hoping listeners take away from all this from this conversation today?

Robin Carnahan
I love that question. I hope folks are as excited about the possibilities as we are a GSA. The world is is looks different today. And if we understand that we really can get a triple win when we make these investments that we don't just have to do the cheapest, dirtiest thing we can. Also by just asking, get things that are cleaner, get things that are U.S. made, we can spur manufacturing and good union labor jobs here in the United States like this can be a triple win.

And so for industry, we need to continue to like have U.S. partners in all of this for the utilities and regulators out there, Like we need to find ways to move faster to help you all generate new, clean energy alternatives for our federal partners. We need to just continue to pool our buying power and our demand, because when we do that and learn from each other, we know we can have a bigger impact.

And all of this Investing in America agenda that we've been pushing as a government, it's not like we're operating in a vacuum. The businesses are looking to do the same thing. They're looking to locate in states and to to put put factories in that produce these kind of materials, because this is what the market across the board is looking for.

And so if we can figure out a way to buy using our buying power signal to the market that this is this is this is something that's going to be here, then it's a smart investment, then we're going to be able to move the needle on this faster. I think all of us want to be part of something bigger than ourselves and would like to think that we can actually do something and are not, you know, completely powerless to to keep our planet healthier and our economy and our country strong.

And there are things we can do. And and buying clean and just pushing this agenda is one that's really important. So that's the take away. We can do this.

Rob Trubia
Yeah. So well-said and as we're finishing, I’ve got one final question for you, Robin. I'm curious if you could maybe confirm or deny a rumor about some Girl Scouts in Madison, Wisconsin, and their excitement about what we've been discussing today. And I think this just as I of course, I know all about this, but I really want you to share this with our listeners.

It's really pretty cool.

Robin Carnahan
Yes. The Girl Scouts, I met them when I was at that. I can't remember what conference one of these big conferences a couple of years ago. And, you know, you go to these things, you meet a lot of people, you have a lot of vendors out there. This was the most impressive thing I saw was two girl Scout troops from Madison, Wisconsin, that showed up with hats that said, ask me about embodied carbon.

And I didn't know much about embodied carbon at the time. So I did ask and these kids were completely focused on how you can make concrete, lower emitting. And they had videos and they went out and talked to everybody in their communities. And I got to tell you, I was completely struck by their knowledge, their passion, all of that.

We've done videos together since then. But these little girls, these kids, that's why we're doing this. That's why all of this matters so much. They're the next generation that we're doing this for. And to see their enthusiasm about what some people might think is pretty boring concrete that how that can make a difference for our future was a big inspiration for me, and I hope it is for the rest of us.

Rob Trubia
Yeah, that third point of the triple win, the healthier planet. And like you said, you can see that in those girls like it's for them. Yeah. A healthier planet. It's for them. Well, that's great. Well, you're both obviously driven by a lot of passion and absolute belief in what you're doing. And it, it comes through. I think it's come through in this podcast, and I really can't thank you both enough for your time.

This has been a great way, a lot of fun to kick off, episode one of season two of GSA does that and I just I'm it's remarkable the thought energy and dollars going into sustainability. It's absolutely remarkable and you're both leading the charge. So thank you both for being here. We really appreciate you both. Have a great rest of your day.

Jason Walsh
Thanks, Rob. It's been a pleasure.

Robin Carnahan
Thanks, Jason. Thanks, Rob. Let's do it again.

Rob Trubia
And that wraps up our first episode of GSA Does That!? Season two, a huge thank you to our guests, GSA administrator Robin Carnahan and Jason Walsh from the Bluegreen Alliance for sharing their insights into the triple win of Sustainability. Today, we explored the significance of sustainable building materials and carbon free electricity in transforming our communities into healthier, wealthier and more sustainable than ever.

We hope you're encouraged with the monumental investments GSA is making to reduce pollution and the innovative strides being taken towards a carbon neutral future. And now, you know, GSA does that. In our next podcast episode, we'll explore HBCU's and their important contributions to the federal landscape promoting a more equitable and prosperous America. Be sure to tune in. Thank you for tuning in to GSA Does That?!

Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform and consider sharing this episode with friends and colleagues, to suggest a topic or guest drop us an email at gsadoesthat@gsa.gov. I'm Rob Trubia, joined by our executive producer Max Stempora. This episode was brought to you by the General Services Administration, Office of Strategic Communication.

I hope you have a great rest of your day!