Changing Government Tech

Join us as we highlight GSA's Technology Modernization Fund (TMF) and its partnership with the Department of Labor. Featuring TMF Executive Director Larry Bafundo and Department of Labor CIO Gundeep Ahluwalia, we discuss technology modernization, the TMF's mission, and the President's AI proposals initiative in the government.

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• Technology Modernization Fund

"GSA Does That!?" is the U.S. General Services Administration's first agency-wide podcast, offering listeners an inside look into how GSA and its partners benefit the American people. Hosted by Rob Trubia, the podcast features interviews with GSA leaders, experts, partners, and customers, covering topics such as federal real estate, acquisitions, and technology. The title reflects many's surprise at the scope of GSA's impact. At the same time, the artwork pays homage to President Harry S. Truman, who established GSA in 1949 to improve government efficiency and save taxpayer money. Whether you're a policy wonk or just curious about government operations, you can join the listener community.

For more information about the show visit, gsa.gov/podcast.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introdocution
• 1:31 Interview
• 34:52 Episode Close

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;18
Rob Trubia
Hello and welcome to another episode of GSA Does That!?. You're listening to the podcast that uncovers the stories behind the federal agency delivering effective and efficient government. I'm your host, Rob Trubia. In this episode, we take another look into the Technology Modernization Fund and specifically how it's partnering with the Department of Labor to deliver better services for the American worker.


00;00;30;20 - 00;01;00;27
Rob Trubia
Joining us in the discussion are TMF’s new executive director Larry Bafundo and Department of Labor's chief information officer, Mr. Gundeep Ahluwalia. Both men have an impressive track record of tackling massive technology modernization projects across the government, improving the lives of millions of Americans in a profound way. And as a bonus, they both excel at explaining technology in a clear and relatable manner that anyone can understand, even me.


00;01;00;29 - 00;01;28;25
Rob Trubia
In our discussion, we'll explore why the TMF is needed and how it presents a unique opportunity to modernize digital platforms for the agencies it partners with. We'll also uncover why the Department of Labor values its partnership with GSA so much, and we'll discuss the president's call for AI proposals across the government. Thank you for listening and subscribing. To learn more about GSA does that, visit us online at gsa.gov/podcast.


00;01;28;27 - 00;01;44;02
Rob Trubia
All right. Let's meet today's guests. Well, Larry, you're relatively new to your role as executive director of the Technology Modernization Fund. I wondered if you might tell us a little bit about your background and why you wanted to lead the TMF.


00;01;44;04 - 00;02;04;16
Larry Bafundo
Yeah. So, I've worked in both the public and private sector going in and out of government recently. I've also worked at or with, every level of government. And so federal, state and local that, develop some interesting, I think, perspectives on the different types of problems and how certain problems are similar at different, different levels.


00;02;04;18 - 00;02;24;15
Larry Bafundo
I actually started in my career in government or my interest in government when I was working in the private sector. I was actually working for a technology consultancy back out in the San Francisco Bay area. And I got this project that changed my life to design a new voting system for Los Angeles County. And LA County is the largest, most diverse voting district in the United States.


00;02;24;15 - 00;02;47;20
Larry Bafundo
And L.A. County was working with our company. And also, this design company to just, like, rethink how voting happens in this, like, hugely large and diverse, jurisdiction. And so, for me, that was a really rewarding experience because it, it resulted in a system that completely transformed the voting experience for those people in LA, but also all the business processes that support it.


00;02;47;20 - 00;03;13;15
Larry Bafundo
And it was first used in the 2016 election, at scale. And so this is like a real tangible thing that, that, you know, I helped make, and is out like supporting a huge pillar of our society, and government. But more importantly for me, it was like a real eye opener for all the different things that I was doing in the private sector and that the huge need for in government and, you know, coming from a background from, mom was, an immigrant from from Italy.


00;03;13;16 - 00;03;32;16
Larry Bafundo
You know, when when they came to United States with her sisters, relied on some government programs to, to get their start here. And so I've always been really interested in and mission and helping people and giving back. so that was just like a one of those moments where, like, you know, set me on a on a trajectory that, you know, I'm at today.


00;03;32;18 - 00;03;52;10
Larry Bafundo
Most recently, I was at the Department of Labor where I know our our guest, Gundeep, at Department of Labor, I was working with Gundeep on an effort to modernize the nation's unemployment insurance systems. And really briefly, if you don't know much about the unemployment insurance system, clearly, it was strained during the Covid 19 pandemic.


00;03;52;13 - 00;04;20;20
Larry Bafundo
There were a lot of people who were suddenly jobless. The system wasn't necessarily built for that scale or that level of responsiveness needed to change on a dime. And because of the antiquated legacy systems that states depend on, there was a lot of, you know, fraud, which undermined the confidence of that program. And so this effort was was really aimed at how do we use funding and technology to strengthen that system by working with, independent states that make up the UI program.


00;04;20;20 - 00;04;44;04
Larry Bafundo
So the Department of Labor provides funding and oversight, but  the states themselves own their technologies and run the programs. so I'm sure we'll talk more about that. And all the work that they're Gundeep is doing today at Department of Labor. But for me, that was an interesting experience to see. How how do you move a system as a whole forward when it's made up of all these different entities that have their own agendas and capabilities limitations?


00;04;44;06 - 00;05;03;11
Larry Bafundo
and I kind of see a similar set of challenges and opportunities here at the federal space, TMF, which is where I'm at now. So I've been in the TMF, for about six months. This is actually my second time at GSA. And for me, it was interesting to to see if I could build on the lessons learned from working with states, in this case, working with federal agencies.


00;05;03;13 - 00;05;22;10
Larry Bafundo
But also, you know, how do you use funding as a lever to show what good looks like and help other organizations move towards it, and also using funding as a lever to help introduce or incentivize good digital practices that that make systems and organizations more effective.


00;05;22;12 - 00;05;43;06
Rob Trubia
You know, I always wondered, who are the people that do these massive projects who change things like, a federal website that serves, you know, millions and hundreds of millions of people, and it's a guy like you and a guy like Gundeep, so this is exciting. That's what I love about this podcast, is understanding these types of processes and people who are behind them.


00;05;43;09 - 00;06;05;13
Rob Trubia
It sounds very much like this is a calling for you. you're on mission, and I think, I'm sure TMF is just thrilled to have you, you know, for our listeners who've maybe never heard of TMF or, you know, shameless plug here on, back in September 23, we did do a podcast about TMF. It was, you know, kind of the 40,000ft level a little bit.


00;06;05;13 - 00;06;16;14
Rob Trubia
We got into some of the details, but for those who don't know what TMF is, Larry, I just wondered if you might give us a little TMF 101. Just what is the technology modernization fund?


00;06;16;16 - 00;06;41;23
Larry Bafundo
Yeah, I'll give the 10,000ft view, really quick. So, so the TMF is, is a program that provides federal agencies with funding and support that helps them modernize technology effectively. Like that. That's the top line, mission. So we were established in 2017. the program is a lot more mature. We now manage over 950 million in investments across more than 30 agencies.


00;06;41;24 - 00;07;12;11
Larry Bafundo
So we have a pretty broad view now, the federal enterprise. And so what the TMF does and like what I think is unique about this program, you know, TMF is like, you know, provide agencies with with not only flexible funding sources to adopt more of a continuous approach modernization. We'll talk more about that later. but also like hands on resources and support through the TMF, PMO and also by connecting agencies to the TMF community and organizations like Gundeep’s that gone through some of these challenges effectively and can help learn from them.


00;07;12;13 - 00;07;27;03
Rob Trubia
Well, speaking of Gundeep, Mr. Gundeep Ahluwalia is our second guest on today's episode. Gundeep is the chief information officer for the Department of Labor. Gundeep, thank you for joining us.


00;07;27;05 - 00;07;30;08
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Well, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.


00;07;30;11 - 00;07;36;11
Rob Trubia
You know, I wondered if you just might share with our listeners a little bit about yourself and what your role is at the Department of Labor.


00;07;36;13 - 00;07;38;26
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Oh my God, how many hours do you have Rob?


00;07;38;29 - 00;07;41;20
Rob Trubia
we try to limit it to eight.


00;07;41;22 - 00;08;05;14
Gundeep Ahluwalia
well, it's so, so and so glad to be here. I've had the pleasure of working with Larry. When he was here at labor, as well as in his kind of role as well. So I am a generation zero immigrant, came to the United States, landed at Dulles Airport in the year 2000 with a small amount of money that my father stole, and refuses to write off as a loan.


00;08;05;17 - 00;08;34;15
Gundeep Ahluwalia
typical, immigrant story sort of emerged from there. A lot of people mentored me, through balls of me that I, of course, you know, working on. And all of that comes comes is a prerequisite. but I, I remind people that, you cannot hit a ball if nobody throws you one. So. So I have been incredibly lucky to be surrounded by a group of very good professionals who took me under their wings and sort of got me to where I am today.


00;08;34;18 - 00;09;01;15
Gundeep Ahluwalia
I've still spent, maybe two thirds of my career in the private sector. Right. I've done, a lot of projects, in, in, truly digital transformation, business process re-engineering, managing data, for business outcomes. Right. So I before the podcast, we were talking about my background. I'm a mechanical engineer over the MBA in marketing and finance, and I'm a CIO of, of a of a cabinet level agency.


00;09;01;15 - 00;09;27;17
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Right. So I don't I'm confused. And I'm, I have a diverse background that helps me build these technical, technological solutions that are actually focused more on the American worker or the the purpose for which we are building. And that's that's where I focus most of my, time. I have two daughters, one of them who just graduated from the University of Virginia.


00;09;27;19 - 00;09;38;15
Gundeep Ahluwalia
When I'm not working for labor, I am an EMT. So if you come to Loudon County and call 911, you might see me respond on Sunday night. so that's a little bit about me.


00;09;38;18 - 00;09;38;24
Rob Trubia
Wow


00;09;38;24 - 00;10;04;00
Gundeep Ahluwalia
How, I have, I've been at labor for eight years, by the way, which is, which has been an amazing journey from, when I arrived, there were no there was no WiFi at 202 Constitution Avenue. And my daughter refused to come to work with me to where we are today in Covid, where DOL, was, I would say, one of the resilient agencies who was able to respond to that fairly quickly.


00;10;04;03 - 00;10;12;23
Gundeep Ahluwalia
in a distributed, digital infrastructure across the nation that allowed us to operate without missing a beat.


00;10;12;25 - 00;10;30;05
Rob Trubia
And you mentioned that you and Larry have worked together in the past. You know, I was curious when I, when I was looking at this and it was at the Department of Labor, I think. What are some of the first projects you started working on together? I mean, you've been modernizing government together for some time now.


00;10;30;08 - 00;10;58;09
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Yeah. So I think the focus was, that he joined us to form the UI system and build resilience into it. He talked a little bit about how there was a tsunami of claims, and suddenly the unemployment grew in a in a system which is a federal state partnership. Right, to build a distributed resilience that allows us to combat fraud, waste, right, while making sure that the person was under


00;10;58;09 - 00;11;23;16
Gundeep Ahluwalia
a life event gets his benefits quickly and the right amount and and in a timely fashion is a is a huge undertaking. Right. So Larry joined us for that purpose. And his a he was in the Office of Unemployment Insurance modernization was that was totally focused but but partnered with a CIO to do that. I think a lot of good outcomes came out of it.


00;11;23;16 - 00;11;43;16
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Right. So I'll speak of one, and then I'll probably throw it to Larry for others. And one of the big things was it was for fighting identity fraud. Right? So we, we, we all talked about, hey, we need I.D. proofing, and you need to make sure that when, when Gundeep  comes in and when files a claim, he's going to be right.


00;11;43;19 - 00;12;13;23
Gundeep Ahluwalia
So we partnered at that time, with, creating a digital pathway to do your ID proofing. And that was through login.gov. It was an amazing success. and, Larry and I and the teams got together and said, like, hey, we need to create a non digital pathway as well, right? Sometimes we we technical technologists get enamored with only the digital pathways.


00;12;13;25 - 00;12;36;06
Gundeep Ahluwalia
So then we actually created a partnership with the United States Postal Service. Guess what? 95% of the US population is within five miles of a post office, right? And they did not miss a single day of delivering your mail even during the pandemic. Right. So if if Gundeep starts getting Rob's unemployment checks, guess what?


00;12;36;06 - 00;13;01;24
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Google knows first, right? so we actually utilized and created a non digital pathway for folks to go into the local post office and do a ID proofing over there so that their claims can be paid in a timely fashion, and that reduction in fraud or fighting fraud upfront has a downstream effect on freeing up resources in the state so that they can focus on difficult claims.


00;13;01;24 - 00;13;23;19
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Right. They're not they're not chasing stuff that is basic in nature. That itself, is is now in, I think, 12 states. If I, if I, if I have the number. Right. and of more than 200,000 people have have made, taken benefit of that service on. Right. So that's just one of the pieces that Larry and I worked on.


00;13;23;21 - 00;13;28;28
Gundeep Ahluwalia
I'll throw it over to him because there was one other things that we did in order to build resilience into the system.


00;13;29;00 - 00;14;03;02
Larry Bafundo
Yeah, sure. I mean, what the other thing that I want to just mention, is that the two in part, largely, I think, to Gundeep’s leadership, the Department of Labor, I think has, is tied for the most investments, TMF investments among the whole federal community. I think they're 6 DOL has right now. and what is super interesting to, to starting that we're starting to see is like, well, we'll be talking to an agency about TMF and how to approach the process, and they'll have questions about how to navigate it.


00;14;03;05 - 00;14;23;16
Larry Bafundo
often they're concerned about how should they be framing the opportunity and to make sure that it's competitive and that the TMF board finds it competitive and decides to to fund it. And more and more often, agencies are saying like, and we're, we're we're going to talk to Dol about how they did it to see, you know, examples of like how they've approached this problem.


00;14;23;18 - 00;14;47;29
Larry Bafundo
and also how they positioned it with the TMF, which I think is great, like that is a, you know, it's a organic thing that is happening now partly because of, you know, because of Gundeep and his team, but also very much along the lines of what we want to cultivate among the TMF portfolio, the reality is that and the federal government and also among states, we tend to look at things as if all these organizations are unique.


00;14;47;29 - 00;15;09;10
Larry Bafundo
And they are they all have, they all have. They're all at different points of of modernization. They have different stressors, different policy environments, etc. but there aren't that many unique problems in government. Often these agencies are solving similarly shaped issues. And so, you know, it's really great to see, you know, that happening organically, where agencies are learning from each other and making connections.


00;15;09;13 - 00;15;25;11
Larry Bafundo
because we should be doing that. We should be not rebuilding things on our own, and we should be leveraging each other and our knowledge and our successes and our and our lessons learned to to move faster, but also do it more efficiently and safer. And so that's been really interesting to see.


00;15;25;14 - 00;15;47;25
Gundeep Ahluwalia
You know, this partnership has been amazing. And it is one right over. And we were one of the first awardees, not many people know this, but the first stop to get a temp worker into the country is the Department of Labor. It's not USCIS or the Department of State or CBP. Right. those come further downstream in that business process.


00;15;47;25 - 00;16;15;12
Gundeep Ahluwalia
So yours truly, who's landed at Dulles airport through the H-1b program, has a we used to import it currency like paper at the Department of Labor and Labor certificates to people through snail mail and that were just stapled to an application that went to USCIS. Right. So that was a process for decades. Well, now using the other funds, what we did was we eliminated that security like paper.


00;16;15;15 - 00;16;40;07
Gundeep Ahluwalia
And now it comes in and the the labor certificate is sent to you like a boarding pass from, from United and says you can proceed to the gate and USCIS already has your information. Right. And that last security paper, this is the program I came through. Okay. That last security paper, the program actually framed it. And the sitting in my house, that's one of my prized possessions.


00;16;40;09 - 00;17;00;19
Gundeep Ahluwalia
And that that that is sitting on my desk. Right. So those are the kind of opportunities that TMF, board has opened up through these investments. And look at the the focus on customer experience, that. Right? I mean, you're waiting for snail mail and now it just comes into your email and you don't have to worry about it.


00;17;00;23 - 00;17;06;17
Gundeep Ahluwalia
You proceed to the next step. That's the kind of experience that people are expecting from the government.


00;17;06;20 - 00;17;32;18
Rob Trubia
Yeah. You're talking about life altering processes, doing things in a different way, changing, changing lives, changing families. These are big. These are really big things. Larry, will the TMF ever just say, shut down a program because it's not reaching its milestones? Or there comes a point where like, this isn't worth the investment at this point, the way this is going, we need to retool or you need to come back to us at a later time.


00;17;32;18 - 00;17;33;16
Rob Trubia
Does that happen?


00;17;33;19 - 00;18;05;09
Larry Bafundo
Yes. I mean, we that's not a, we we don't expect that to be a typical case. Right. It should be an exception. But but that's part of the design of the program. Right. And that all this is supposed to be a competitive process that the TMF board, you know, looks at these different opportunities through and and determines which of these things are the most important opportunity to invest in, and as I said, you know, agencies need to show value throughout their milestones across the multi-year funding schedule associated with the proposal.


00;18;05;11 - 00;18;14;23
Larry Bafundo
And if and if they're not, then the team at four needs to consider, like, what's sort of what's the right action to take from a, from, investment management standpoint.


00;18;14;25 - 00;18;28;06
Rob Trubia
So that board serves a group of like, it's like a group of investors keeping an eye on their investment, making sure that it's going where it needs to go so we can continue to invest and feel good about it. Is that is that right? 


00;18;28;08 - 00;18;48;04
Larry Bafundo
Yeah. That's right. I do want to highlight one other thing though, in the sense that, you know, our team at, at the TMF, so the TMF project Management office, we have a team of folks that are dedicated to the proposal process. So they're working like hand in glove with agencies around their idea. We help them prepare for pitches to the to the TMF board.


00;18;48;08 - 00;19;06;09
Larry Bafundo
So we're in there working with them, like helping them refine their messaging, like shaping the slide and making sure that they can answer the right questions. Right. We make recommendations to the board and we try to prepare our agency partners the best we can to to help deliver that message, because it's important that they deliver. Ultimately, they're going to be owning these things, right.


00;19;06;11 - 00;19;25;24
Larry Bafundo
We also have a team of people who are dedicated to investment management. So once an agency gets the money, that's at the end of the relationship. I mentioned before that, you know, they they also get funding incrementally over the life of their investments, not all up front. Our team was working with them throughout that entire schedule, helping them understand, you know, what challenges are you facing?


00;19;25;24 - 00;19;48;05
Larry Bafundo
Are you on track for your milestones? Do these milestones need to change? And so I just want to emphasize that, you know, while the TMF board ultimately makes decisions around, you know, funding and whether or not to continue funding an idea, the TMF, PMO, I would say, is certainly a a partner, if not an advocate for all these agencies and their investments, like we all want them to be successful.


00;19;48;05 - 00;19;51;26
Rob Trubia
So you're acting as consultants and investors, both.


00;19;51;29 - 00;20;15;15
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Yeah. And I from the other side, I'll tell you that is exactly how the PMO is, right? I mean, they've been at it and it has evolved. But we were one of the first TMF Awards, and we have had a TMF award as recently as a few months ago. Right. So that PMO team and how the processes and procedures within TMF board have have evolved as is, is amazing, right?


00;20;15;15 - 00;20;36;07
Gundeep Ahluwalia
I mean, the first one, it was a it was not a smooth process right in the beginning. But now the PMO board is not only guiding you like a Sherpa. Right. But but they handle what do the investment management folks is pretty good too, right? Then we we we we know what milestones are hitting and quite honestly, we are very transparent to the board.


00;20;36;09 - 00;20;53;01
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Right. If we are not going to yeah. If you're going to miss a milestone, the way the process is set up right now Rob, we will come in and say like, hey, we got a part in last or here's the rest that has materialized. It is my mitigation strategy, and here is how we are going to address it.


00;20;53;01 - 00;21;01;25
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Right. So not many projects run aground, at least from a DoL perspective because of those processes.


00;21;01;27 - 00;21;22;29
Rob Trubia
Yeah, a lot of checks and balances. Gundeep, I want you to explain something to me, because I know you've got decades of experience in the private industry. Can you help me understand how modernization challenges are different in the government versus private sector? Or maybe they're not, and maybe you can use one of your projects. So you're partnering with TMF to kind of highlight that.


00;21;23;04 - 00;21;24;24
Rob Trubia
I'd really like to understand that.


00;21;24;27 - 00;21;30;04
Gundeep Ahluwalia
I thank you for calling me old. Rob, that was that was nicely done.


00;21;30;06 - 00;21;32;01
Rob Trubia
Experienced Gundeep, experienced.


00;21;32;04 - 00;21;53;03
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Yes, I know, I know, and so I think there are, there are challenges that are unique to the government and then there are challenges that are are there you are not unique to the government and are a element of the size of an operation. Right. so let me let me start with, with the second piece first.


00;21;53;03 - 00;22;26;16
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Right. When, when you have to reform a part of the immigration system. Right. Like the labor certification or you have to think about collecting data from 401 K plans in order for lost and found, kind of databases, for, for the, the general public. Right. Or to invest. These are all things that require a lot of analysis, a lot of understanding of what the levers are, some level of research, some changing of forms.


00;22;26;16 - 00;22;49;02
Gundeep Ahluwalia
So there is a lot that goes into it. A lot of planning goes into it. Right. And I would say that there are the risks associated with that kind of a enterprise change that impacts eventually millions of people. it's not unique to the government, right? It is if you are if you are going to make a change of that, scale.


00;22;49;08 - 00;23;15;17
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Right. The risks associated and how you manage them are not unique to the government in my mind. how we manage these risks now in the government sometimes. Or you need challenges that we create for ourselves, right? for for instance. Right. There are challenges that are created from a regulatory standpoint. I collect data for a certain, a program.


00;23;15;24 - 00;23;43;11
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Now, I know that that data is useful for another program. Right. But I can't use it because that's how the regulation is written. Right. So there are certain barriers that are created by law or by regulation, that, that, that, frustrate sometimes the digital transformation folks, because I want to go places. Right. And but I also have realized that those, those safeguards are created for purpose.


00;23;43;13 - 00;24;06;02
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Right. Because it actually is to safeguard against misuse. Right. The when you collect the data for one purpose and use it for another. So I understand the but that is a construct that is unique to the government. right. We talk about funding cycles, how the annual funding cycles are so in my mind they are not timely. First of all.


00;24;06;02 - 00;24;26;11
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Right. Every year we we get a budget for the year midway through the year. I mean, that's not how you run the railroad, right? So there is that issue that is unique to the government. I would say now, the working government and TMF are are ways to sort of get around, not get around. But help with that problem.


00;24;26;13 - 00;25;03;29
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Right. three is it is I would say that we do not focus on our people as, as much as we share it, right? I am it's always about people, right? People who are delivering the solution. People. What the solution is meant for. Right? So we do not focus on customer experience. Employee experience. Right. We expect because a person who Ubers through an app to come to work, and then we give them three screens at work and say, you have five applications to do your work.


00;25;03;29 - 00;25;30;01
Gundeep Ahluwalia
And and in the office, oh my God, right. It blows their mind. So it's not only about the customer experience, the employee experience as well. The don't forget people. and I think sometimes we are unable to respond. We, we, we do not focus enough in my mind to to on on the people that we serve and the people, within the government who are serving them.


00;25;30;01 - 00;25;34;02
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Right. So I think that that's a unique, challenge. Yeah.


00;25;34;02 - 00;26;03;11
Larry Bafundo
I mean, I think a lot of what you said resonates. I do have a perspective on those two and can connect a little bit with something that we're doing at TMF. So, I mean, I, I also worked in the private sector, actually, I worked with a lot of, banks, financial institutions and, and saw some similarities when I came into government, that, that those organizations had, you know, large enterprise technology legacy components, you know, scale complexity and bureaucracy, like some of the things are the same.


00;26;03;11 - 00;26;24;01
Larry Bafundo
Right? But but this is how I also think about a little bit differently. you know, either case, whether you're working for a company or you're working for a federal agency, technology is just a tool, right? It is just a tool. And so like, let's ask ourselves like, how is that tool used in different ways in, in the private sector you use technology to expand market share in general, right.


00;26;24;01 - 00;26;43;19
Larry Bafundo
Make money. Right? Sure. I mean, in the public sector, you're using technology to deliver on a policy, right? So your outcomes are really only going to be as good as that connection between technology and policy. In some cases, technology can only do so much if the policy constraints are, you know, significant. Right. So I think that's one thing to consider.


00;26;43;19 - 00;27;10;16
Larry Bafundo
An example. This like in government, you can't just think entirely about about value. You can't just optimize for a value. You have to be thinking about how do you remove the constraints that you face, policy or otherwise, to help you deliver the best outcomes as possible. So an example of this is like just take the voting system I mentioned earlier, like the government can pick and choose its markets like a private sector firm would say, we're going to build a product that does XYZ and focuses on these these users.


00;27;10;19 - 00;27;29;14
Larry Bafundo
Well, for a voting system, you can decide you're not going to support, differently abled individuals who need to interact with the service in a specific way. You have to accommodate that. And so you have to balance all these trade offs. And that's how I think system design is so much more complex and challenging in the government than in that in the private sector.


00;27;29;14 - 00;27;53;03
Larry Bafundo
It’s just one example. and so another piece here is like, you know, again, like I really think about this space more in terms of how do you identify the constraints holding back the system and which constraints can you do most effectively address in your time here in government? Since many of our challenges are going to be continue past us and are in some cases generational, right.


00;27;53;05 - 00;28;23;09
Larry Bafundo
How do you identify the most compelling constraints and how do you remove them? Well, one of the things that TMF, I think is, is doing and I'm excited about, aside from the funding constraint, it's also helping agencies think more in terms of outcomes. Right. And that's challenging because organizations one historically had not always thought in that way. I think we still define success for I.T modernization efforts in terms of features and functionality delivered as opposed to measurable results.


00;28;23;12 - 00;28;42;08
Larry Bafundo
This is something I know that Gundeep has been leading the charge on at Dol and, in a lot of cases, agencies just don't have baselines. So if you ask yourself, if you ask me agency to say with this investment, show us how you'll demonstrate that this is better. The comparison is difficult because they're not able to compare it with with the comparable metric.


00;28;42;08 - 00;29;01;03
Larry Bafundo
Right. And so they have to establish the baselines as well. So one of the things that TMF is doing is, is building tools and resources as part of the proposal and asset management relationship that I mentioned earlier, that helps organizations think more in these ways. And also reference metrics and tools and strategies that other organizations have put in place.


00;29;01;03 - 00;29;37;28
Larry Bafundo
Other federal agencies have used in that domain. So if you're an organization that's using the TMF to get funding to improve your website, a customer experience effort, we want you to know about what are some common but compelling cx oriented metrics that you could reference and how other organizations have used them, and what's the toolkit and or systems that you need to actually, leverage those to demonstrate value and better make the case both internally within your agency for for additional funding and support for these efforts, as well as demonstrating the return on investment on your TMF project.


00;29;38;01 - 00;30;01;04
Rob Trubia
As we start winding down this episode, Gundeep, I really want to hear from you because Larry mentioned the things you're DOL. Will you tell me a little bit about what gets you excited every morning to come to work, the things that you're trying to change. And I'd like to hear big picture, like how you see government evolving and modernizing in a world of IT.


00;30;01;06 - 00;30;42;17
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Yeah. So I will tell you, Rob, I, I, I the number of things that the Department of Labor does from keeping mines safe to doing workmen compensation claims for 2.5 million federal employees and other investment that TMF board has just made, is on that workman's compensation claim system to the immigration space that I spoke about, to flying drones and inspecting oil rigs and OSHA, to buying sheep in northern Africa, through our Bureau of International Labor Affairs to managing it, $23 billion worth of of training grants.


00;30;42;18 - 00;30;45;20
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Right. That's a portfolio that we manage.


00;30;45;22 - 00;30;54;14
Rob Trubia
With everything you just explained. And I know you have six investments, but you said with TMF, it sounds like you'd like to have about 12 or 18.


00;30;54;16 - 00;31;11;21
Gundeep Ahluwalia
Absolutely. Rob you, you read my mind. And also I would remind the viewers and the TMF board that we are a triple A student. We have always hit the target and have repaid, all the money that, that we were supposed to repay. So yes.


00;31;11;23 - 00;31;36;19
Rob Trubia
A great partner for sure. Before we do end this podcast, Larry, I've got to ask you about AI. President Biden recently announced a call for AI proposals. I'm guessing this has got TMF excited and busy. How does AI and this proposal request affect you and your team?


00;31;36;21 - 00;32;04;27
Larry Bafundo
Well, it's certainly said yes, we we did have recently a AI call for proposals. we're seeing a tremendous demand from in general for the TMF, but this just the past couple of months, but specifically for AI. So there's a lot of AI driven proposals, working their way through that process currently. And you'll probably be seeing some announcements around some of the funding decisions that are being made, you know, based on that first cohort of, proposals.


00;32;04;29 - 00;32;28;14
Larry Bafundo
But yeah, we see this as a growth area, an area of, particular focus for the TMF moving forward, just in part because of the excitement around AI, but also the potential promise of these technologies helping to streamline workflows in some cases, improve decision making and also support and strengthen, customer experiences. So so we would definitely see this as a huge opportunity.


00;32;28;16 - 00;32;44;12
Larry Bafundo
And we're also very interested in helping us helping the broader federal, technology ecosystem, again, learn from, successful projects, and better share insights and, tactics, lessons learned.


00;32;44;14 - 00;32;54;10
Rob Trubia
Well, Larry, final word from you. I'm just curious where you see TMF in a year or two, maybe even a decade. How are you evolving? Where are you headed?


00;32;54;12 - 00;33;16;07
Larry Bafundo
I, I think one of the things is in terms of the near future, that that I am very excited about in terms of the TMF is so, so the TMF sits on and as I mentioned before, like close to $1 billion worth of investments or what will be at one point some point soon and over, you know, more than 30 agencies.


00;33;16;09 - 00;33;39;16
Larry Bafundo
that's an interesting sample size. And we are uniquely positioned, I think, to understand some pretty interesting things, like budget spending patterns, how much things cost, like where agency spending money, who is the money going to? Where agency is seeing traction from a modernization standpoint and what fronts, how, what aspects are transferable or relatable to other organizations?


00;33;39;16 - 00;34;03;25
Larry Bafundo
How do we enable that? so, so I really feel like TMF has now cultivated this, this, this basis or this community, that one I think we want to we want to help enable to make connections and learn from each other. But but two it is like, well, what can we learn from that? And how can that inform future policymaking, future budgeting strategy for for the IT modernization space.


00;34;03;27 - 00;34;27;13
Larry Bafundo
and also to better understand like where is the best return on investment on these types of things? I don't think the team of portfolio is is a 1 to 1 reflection of the federal technology, enterprise. But but it's a pretty significant sample again. And I think it deserves our attention. And I'm really excited about the insights that TMF can start to generate around this growing ecosystem.


00;34;27;16 - 00;34;47;06
Rob Trubia
Well, this is our second podcast talking TMF. I can tell you there will be a third some time down the line, and we'll look forward to catching up with you again, Larry. Gundeep, thanks for taking the time, you're a fascinating gentleman to talk to you. Thank you for your service to your country and all the great things you're doing for the American worker.


00;34;47;07 - 00;35;09;11
Rob Trubia
And, Larry, it's great to get to know you. And congratulations again on your role with TMF. Hey, thank you for joining us. We hope you enjoyed our discussion and a sincere thank you to TMF Executive Director Larry Bafundo and DOL’s Chief Information Officer, Mr. Gundeep Ahluwalia. These men are both leading the way in making government services more effective and efficient for all of us.


00;35;09;14 - 00;35;32;12
Rob Trubia
We learned why the TMF is essential for modernizing digital platforms, and how the partnership between the Department of Labor and GSA is driving innovation and better services for the American workforce. Join us next time as we explore how the bipartisan infrastructure law is paving the way for GSA and Customs and Border Protection to modernize our land ports of entry.


00;35;32;14 - 00;35;57;27
Rob Trubia
Thank you for tuning in to GSA. Does That!? Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform and consider sharing this episode with friends and colleagues. To suggest a topic or guest, drop us an email at gsadoesthat@GSA.gov. I'm Rob Trubia, joined by our executive producer, Mr. Max Stempora. This episode was brought to you by the General Services Administration, Office of Strategic Communication.


00;35;57;29 - 00;36;01;03
Rob Trubia
I hope you have a great rest of your day.